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This text is written in interview-style. Grandmaster, Dr. Chiu Chi Ling, argues here very outspoken and direct with his master student and "Inner Room" student Martin Sewer. Through Master Sewer's long lasting and intensive master-student-relationship trustfulness has been built which someone can only gain if there is a high quality base of trust and candidness. Dr. Chiu speaks about subjects, which he never had published so far. Because of his over 55 years old experience and his engagement in Chinese martial arts he is one of the few who has the right, even the duty, to inform the next generation about the true background of martial arts.

Dr. Chiu Chi Ling have said many times, that even he doesn't know everything, just like every other man. So, if somebody have any questions or notes, or even have more knowledge about it, he shall feel free to contact the grandmaster under chiuchiling@gmail.com needless to say, in a due form.

The Shaolin Temple is not the founder of kung fu?!

CCL: The Chinese Martial Arts are very very old and they have a long history. In the old days people knew about this history. In southern China, also in Japan, Korea, Singapore etc. the martial arts were very common.

Today it is impossible to define exactly the origin of the Chinese Martial Arts. It is said, that the first people in Asia were living near the yellow river. The first fights and wars were fought out for better places at water or for better hunting grounds. Based on fragmentary information, which are coming from old literary and artistic traditions from China, a high developed martial art already existed in the Zhou Dynasty (1027-256 b.C.). This was long before the birth of northern or southern Shaolintemple. Contrary to the statement of some people from the present Shaolintemple, this was long before Shaolin existed. People of Shaolin are always saying that they were the founder of Kung Fu, that they have invented it. Yet this is not true.

Wushu, Kung Fu? What's about all these different names?

CCL: Throughout history martial arts had many different names. However, the techniques and the idea remain constant.

Kwok Seut* (Kuoshu) = national art
Mou Seut* (Wu Shu) = art of war
Kuen Gerk* = fist, kick
Kwok Soi* = national spirit
Boji* = combat, fight
Duai da* = fight, hand to hand

*Cantonese expressions

(in brackets mandarin expressions)

These are all names for Kung Fu. At that time single stiles or clans weren't known yet. Everything was studied and practiced under the same name.

From the old days until today these techniques were kept all along. NOT from Shaolin, but from all the people who brought the experience from battles and wars.

Didn't Ta Mo (Boddidharma) bring the Kung Fu to Shaolin?

CCL: Perhaps he really did bring something to it. But he definitely wasn't the founder or the inventor of Kung Fu or Shaolin Kung Fu. Kung Fu already existed long before he was born.

If Ta Mo really should have brought Kung Fu to Shaolin, from where would he have got it? Was his Kung Fu better than that one that was already known in China? We don't know that. It doesn't exist any historical report in which it's said that he won any battles or that he participated any challenges. China already had martial arts.

Where does Kung Fu come from?

CCL: At the time before China was existing different countries were in war. From those days on all the knowledge and experiences about fighting were gathered. Under all these battles the techniques and strategies were always advanced and improved. 3000 – 4000 years before, in the time when China was born, lots of battles and wars were fought out. Many different countries waged wars. Japan, Taiwan, Thailand and Mongolia were in war with each other. In this time many techniques were tested and integrated.

When was this?

CCL: Chun Chi Wang (Zhou Cheng Wang) brought peace to the 7 empires. (Zhou dynasty = 1027 BC – 256 BC)

Was Kung Fu created from the experiences of the best fighters?

CCL: China is much older than Europe. That's the reason why there is so much knowledge and experience in the martial arts. Each dynasty had their generals which were all experts in martial arts. The generals were respectively responsible for the protection of the country. About 100 AC were these protector Guan Gung (Kwan Kung), Lau Bei, Chang Fei, Chiu Yean (Chiu Zhi Long). Guan Gung was famous for his halberd which was named later in his honor Guan Dao.

The emperor of the Song dynasty and his generals were all martial arts experts, as for example General Yue Fei or the emperor Chiu Hung Yin. Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing from the Hung Gar system were both honored martial arts instructors of the chinese army. They helped other peoples everywhere they could and earned the respect and the regard of the martial art circle.

It is easy to see that China had a lot of wars and battles. Of these battles and wars the experiences were taken and relaied to the next generation. Now it is important also to relaied these experiences to the next generation of masters.

Good Kung Fu = good chances to have a good living?

CCL: If you wanted a better position at that time, you had to have a good Kung Fu. Otherwise it was impossible to become an officer for example. All the best Kung Fu masters were gathered for the army (look at Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing). The government had chosen them. Only the best of the best had the chance to be chosen by the government.

Hung Gar for the defense of the country?

CCL: In China the door to the south was strategically very important and it had a great value, as it even has today. So the army was very strong in the south. Because of this the Hung Gar style became very popular. Not everyone who practiced Hung Gar was able to learn the system to the end. As a result of it many people have later created their own style.

Was the Chinese folk hero Wong Fei Hung a Hung Gar fighter?

CCL: In Hong Kong a lot of Hung Gar people went into the film business. So the whole Hung Gar history became very famous. Every child knew and still knows the history of Hung Gar. The story of Wong Fei Hung was filmed over 100 times and has made it in the Guinness book of records. No other style could reach this, only Hung Gar. These films got famous all over whole South-east Asia. Then and also today, everyone knows Wong Fei Hung. He was famous for the following things:

Best Kung Fu fighter

The king of lion dance

Best doctor

Strong Moral

Good behavior and very gentle

In China no other Kung Fu fighter got as famous as him. Wong Fei Hung was for many people like a superman.

Also you, Grandmaster Chiu, became an actor. Why?

CCL: I belong to the famous lineage of Wong Fei Hung (direct pedigree) and I practice real Hung Gar. The public wanted to see real Kung Fu and Hung Gar was the most famous style.

Is Hung Gar the most famous system?

CCL: There were 5 famous Kung Fu families in south China (in the following order):

1. Hung
2. Lau
3. Choy
4. Li
5. Mok

It's not like lots of present masters are saying. At that time no other styles were famous. These five styles were prevalent in the south of China.

What was with actors who didn't practice Hung Gar?

CCL: The famous actor Kwan Tak Hing who played in many films the role of Wong Fei Hung, had to learn Hung Gar before he was allowed to play these roles.

Why Hung Gar?

CCL: In Asia people knows about Hung Gar Kung Fu. The folk knows about the stances, the forms and also the value of the Qi Gong which is inside the Hung Gar.

The true history of Kung Fu?

CCL: The history of Kung Fu isn't now new invented. And it won't change in the future, even if many teacher and masters are trying to do this. The true history of Kung Fu is very very old.

The truth about southern Shaolin?

CCL: The history of the southern Shaolin temple is compared to the history of Kung Fu very young. The Ming dynasty ended 1644.

“Fan Qing Fok Ming” (down with Qing – up with Ming) was a famous speech within the patriots.

In this bellicose and unstable time the southern Shaolin temple was an excellent place to hide oneself from the Qings. The patriotic people came from everywhere to build a guild against the government. Many outstanding Kung Fu fighters came to south Shaolin and allied with each other. Together this community wanted to overthrow the government and wanted to give the country back into Chinese hands. In this time many new techniques and weapons were added to the Hung system. A lot of these strategies, techniques and weapons were already very old. Some of these techniques were:

Ng Long Pa Kua Kwan (stick form)
Chun Chau Guan Do (Halberdform)
Diu Bin Gik (a sort of a halberd)
Yu Gar Day Pa (Tiger fork)
Bench
9 teeth rake
Im Do (knife)
Halfmoonsickle

Many tools were converted to weapons. People learned to handle and fight with it. Even the Buddhist monk stick was used for fights. Chiu Kow was for example very good with the 9 part whip.

There were many weapons which were easy to carry and which had their origin in their daily use. The most famous and most common weapon was the sword. This wasn't only in China like that. Also in European countries the sword was the most common weapon.

Where did the true Kung Fu go?

CCL: Taiwan is very traditional in Chinese Kung Fu. They tried there to keep all traditions alive after Mao had forbidden everything.

Taiwan has the real Kung Fu?

CCL: This is easy to explain. In the Chinese civil war 1926-1928 the communistic north campaign began. General Tschiang Kai Schek and Mao Tse Tung with the Red Army wrote history. This is today in every history book and for everyone comprehensible. Taiwan knew and still knows our traditions and they cultivated it. They wanted that Chinese people are healthy and strong. Everyone should learn Kung Fu to have a healthy and strong country. Kung Fu was mostly brought in the traditional way to Taiwan and was there taught to people. This way of thinking conserved many parts of Chinese Culture.

No Kung Fu in China anymore?

CCL: China was controlled by Mao Tse Tung. Everything was changed, the language and the culture. Many of the old temples were destroyed. Religions were forbidden and destroyed. The faith of the people was destroyed. Mao was adored and everything was adjusted to him. Also Kung Fu didn't got away safe. Those who practiced Kung Fu were arrested or even killed. Teaching, learning, or even knowing somebody who practiced Kung Fu was punished.

For many years everything was changed. For over 10 years everyone had to belief in Mao. Everything was stopped. Learning and teaching Kung Fu was impossible. It wasn't even allowed to say the word “Kung Fu” or “Shaolin”. Fortunately Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore were spared. Only in China existed such troubles.

Many people escaped from China, needless to say also a lot of good Kung Fu people. For them, there was no peace and no chance for earning money in china anymore. These were the main reasons for their emigration.

Beyond China, did the Kung Fu unite?

CCL: Taiwan and other countries continued the traditions and kept them. Hong Kong got a centre of true Kung Fu. Different Kung Fu families united themselves in Hong Kong and built a strong community. Especially Hung Gar and Chiu Kow were famous.

Was lion dance popular in China?

CCL: Lion dance was very popular in the southern part of China, before Mao came and forbid everything. At that time it was common to watch Kung Fu performances. People loved to see good Kung Fu performances. At that time no TV and no DVD was existing and it was common to practice Kung Fu in the evening.

No true Kung Fu in the Shaolin temple?

CCL: The Shaolin temple was destroyed. The monks haven't trained anymore. So how were they able to teach any students? How can the monks say that they practice and teach real Kung Fu? They wear monk clothes, shave their heads but we're able to see that they only practice modern Shaolin Kung Fu. The old and true Kung Fu doesn't look like this. If you go to south or north Shaolin now, you can only see modern Kung Fu. Traditional Shaolin Kung Fu is lost in the temple. Everyone can see it clear. Also beginners are able to see this.

Fake monks and fake Kung Fu?

CCL: People in the temple can't do traditional Kung Fu. I contact the southern Shaolin temple in Fukien. The people there gave me their visit card. I'm Chinese and understand Chinese language. It's no problem for me to understand what is written on those cards. The highest monk is “in charge” for the Shaolin temple. He isn't a fight monk. He is the representative for relationships to the temple, no Kung Fu teacher. What they show there is modern Wushu. Traditional Kung Fu is completely lost there.

If you want to learn real Kung Fu today, you have to search beyond China for it. Then you may be able to learn real, original and Chinese Kung Fu. Then we could bring it back to Shaolin. But this sounds fairly paradox .

We who have learned real Kung Fu must let the world know what real Kung Fu is.

That's why this article…

What was at 1955 in Hong Kong?

CCL: In Hong Kong we had different Kung Fu associations. The Kung Fu scene in Hong Kong was very clear. It was easy for us to meet each other. The government had asked us to promote traditional Kung Fu again.

Kung Fu should go Olympic?

CCL: Kung Fu should go to the Olympic Games. That's why official tournaments were held. At that time no modern Wushu did exist. Every style and every school was allowed to participate. The first tournament took place in Hong Kong. More tournaments followed in Macao and Canton. Until you were invited to Peking if you were successful on these tournaments .

Your master and father, Chiu Kow, was on these tournaments?

CCL: Chiu Kow was able to see all of these styles. This was very special and impressive. He, who gave his whole life into the Kung Fu, could now see all these different styles.

Did Chiu Kow win those tournaments?

CCL: Chiu Kow won all of those tournaments. People of the north were very impressed of him and asked themselves who he was and what kind of Kung Fu style he practiced.

Nan Chuan comes from Chiu Kow?

CCL: People knew that he comes from the south and they named his Kung Fu “Nam Kuen” (cant.) or “Nan Chuan” (mand.). He performed the tiger & crane form (Fu Hok Seung Yin Kuen) and people wanted to learn this form. Chiu Kow began to teach this form in Peking to those who were interested. But he only taught this single form there. He hadn't time to really reach the depth of the system. The government liked this form. They wanted to have this form for the Olympic Games.

In Peking he was welcomed then in the civil hall. For his great Kung Fu he received a certification from Mao Tse Tung.

Did Chiu Kow have got famous?

CCL: Chiu Kow was celebrated after his victory. In Hong Kong, Canton, Macao and many other regions he was in the newspapers and the different organizations and associations honored him. Different movie companies wanted him in the film business.

Wushu from Hung Gar?

CCL: From the original tiger crane form the government created then a new form and named it Wushu. They also made new colored training clothes. The form was adapted to the tournaments. The length of the form was reduced that they didn't need so much time anymore. This was the first official south fist-Wushu-form. After the great tournament the government only supported modern Wushu but not the traditional Kung Fu anymore.

China destroyed the Kung Fu the second time?

CCL: This was the second time that the traditional Kung Fu was lost in China. The first time was the ban on Kung Fu from Mao.

Modern Wushu?

CCL: Today the word “modern Wushu” is used, like in this article too. So many different words for it, which confuses people.

What is “modern Wushu” or “new Wushu”?

CCL: Modern Wushu has more jumps, acrobatic and lots of gymnastic elements. If you practice modern Wushu today you are maybe better in gymnastics. “Sin Wushu” means new Wushu. This word is meanwhile established in the Chinese language.

Karate, Judo, Jiu Jitsu and many other martial arts are worth to keep it?

CCL: Karate, Judo, Jiu Jitsu and many other martial arts are worth to keep it and to cultivate it. What is with Chinese Kung Fu? Why does the Chinese government do this? – Communism – In only 50 years the government quasi destroyed the whole, many centuries old knowledge.

Did you have to learn this Wushu, Grandmaster Chiu?

CCL: The government wanted us, the old traditional masters, to learn the new Wushu.

In my school in Hong Kong the government tried to establish new modern Wushu. They invited us, the traditional masters to show us what the new official form is like. They wanted us to learn the new Wushu. We should learn it and pay for it. They invited us to bring our students along who, needless to say, should pay too.

All these traditional masters had spent a very long time in their life with learning their traditional Kung Fu. They may have spent 40 – 60 years for training. They have kept the culture and have taught how to rest healthy or how to defense oneself. The traditional masters always did this and every single one of them had already decades of experience in it. They also made their living with being Kung Fu master. They knew lion dance, medicine, a healthy and efficiently Kung Fu and they had a long history. Has modern Wushu these things too? No, they only have some forms for the tournaments . Traditional Kung Fu has 10'000 styles with long histories. There is a lot to learn. Has modern Wushu this too?

Is there no Sifu in modern Wushu?

CCL: Modern Wushu destroys the centuries old culture. In modern Wushu there is no Sifu (master), there is a coach. This destroys thebehaving and the moral.

Wushu goes Olympic?

CCL: You can't go to the Olympic Games, if you don't learn modern Wushu. If you learned one form you're able to go to the Olympic Games? After you have the basics you just can go to the Olympic Games? Easy to win, isn't it?

But if you learn a traditional style, you're maybe learning for 30 years but you can't go to the Olympic Games. So you have to sacrifice the traditions to win. Many people have stopped to learn traditional Kung Fu to be able to win a single time. If you look at the whole thing, the level in traditional Kung Fu is constantly sinking. And what I just explained is one of the reasons for it. The government haven't supported traditional Kung Fu anymore and many schools had to close because they hadn't any students anymore.

What's about the 2. Traditional Kung Fu tournament of the IwuF in China?

CCL: Why are they doing this now? In the past only modern Wushu was supported for some decades. How comes this sudden change? And an important question, who is able to judge that?

Since years there isn't any traditional Kung Fu left in China. Who of these people have learned traditional Kung Fu? In the traditional Kung Fu are thousands of movements. Who have taught them and from whom did they learn.

The answers to these questions are simple and sadly true. The organization invites all traditional people. Unfortunately the prize for participation, hotel prize etc. are compared to normal Chinese prizes too expensive. At the registration the organizer wants to know who you are, from who you have learned and how many students you have. Based on these facts they will judge you. Funny enough everyone gets a medal. Because there are only 1, 2 and 3 placed...

The IWuF and the Chinese government try to bring traditional Kung Fu to China again and to promote it. At the last tournament you could see that it wasn't a real tournament. They haven't got good rules because they don't know what is important in traditional Kung Fu. The tournament was more like a big amicable meeting. Every participator got a medal regardless of how good he was.

Wushu vs. traditional Kung Fu?

CCL: Today there is a big ditch between modern Wushu and traditional Kung Fu. Personally I'm very sad about this. The new generation of modern Wushu don't hold the masters and grandmasters in high esteem anymore. It makes me really very sad. Maybe it would be good, if we make a big meeting with the present masters of the traditional Kung Fu to find a better way to promote the traditional Kung Fu.

What are your wishes for the future of Chinese Kung Fu?

CCL: Traditional masters and grandmasters are meeting each other very often. Today the most important traditional Kung Fu people know each other all over the world. Also in the past there were many meetings. At times of Chiu Kow it was already like that. The Chinese government is starting to promote traditional Kung Fu again. I'm glad to hear that the Chinese sport game committee wants to support now modern Wushu and traditional Kung Fu. I'm very glad about this. I hope that we are able to keep our Chinese heritage like this and bring it to the Olympic Games.

Modern Wushu and traditional Kung Fu should be together. It isn't good to split it. This is my hope.

Thank you very much, Grandmaster Dr. Chiu Chi Ling, for this interview.

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